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Fintech For Social Good: Craig Carroll of JustFund.

January 24, 2025 · Hosted by Dexter Cousins

About this Episode

Dexter Cousins interviews Craig Carroll, co-founder of JustFund, one of Australia’s fastest-growing startups.
Craig shares his innovative approach to solving a problem that creates untold stress on those seeking divorce – lending for family law fees.

With a background as a serial entrepreneur, Craig shares insights on navigating uncertainty, his lessons learned from the US market, the importance of company culture, and the role of AI in enhancing client service. 
Dexter gets to discuss his favourite topic – hiring the right talent and building a strong company culture as JustFund prepares for international expansion.

About Craig

Craig is passionate about financial services, education and technologies that either promote economic well-being and/or address societal challenges. Craig’s career has been focused on creating, building and managing teams, raising capital, consumer social lending, product development, software development, corporate strategy and general management across various sectors.

Craig has extensive experience developing services that help individuals deal with financial matters. He has also advised educational institutions on admission strategies and accessibility. Throughout his career, Craig has been an investor and advisor to various early-stage and growth companies.

Key Takeaways

  • JustFund has approved about $115 million in lines of credit since its inception.
  • Lessons from the US market -the importance of controlling customer acquisition costs.
  • JustFund focuses on client-centric solutions for individuals facing family law issues.
  • The cultural differences between the US and Australia have a major impact on business strategies and operations.
  • How AI can enhance productivity and client service in the lending process.
  • Hiring for adaptability and resilience is crucial in a startup environment.
  • Building a strong company culture from day one is essential for long-term success.
  • JustFund’s plans to expand into international markets, starting with New Zealand.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to JustFund and Its Mission

03:24 Innovating Financial Products Using Data

06:36 The Role of AI in Product Development

12:17 Rapid Growth and Scaling Strategies

19:26 Craig’s Experience in the USA

23:32 Australian vs US Talent

27:40 The Challenges of Hiring in 2025

31:36 Setting the Foundations of Culture

36:35 The Benefits of Being Obsessed with NPS

Links & Resources:

Links from this episode.

More on lending and culture on Fintech Chatter.

Full transcript.

Lightly edited for readability — filler words removed, wording otherwise unchanged.

Dexter Cousins
Fintech Chatter Podcast, brought to you by Tier One People, the leaders in executive search for fintech ventures.

Hello and welcome to Fintech Chatter, the show where I connect with fintech leaders to talk about their secrets to success. I’m Dexter Cousins, your host and the founder of Tier One People, the executive search firm dedicated to connecting high growth fintech companies with exceptional leaders with a proven track record placing executives in mission critical roles. Tier One People is trusted partner to some of the world’s most recognisable fintech brands.

I’m joined today by Craig Carroll from JustFund. JustFund is Australia’s only dedicated provider for family law fees, offering flexible payment solutions to ease the financial burden during divorce or separation. With a unique approach that focuses on individual circumstances rather than just income or credit score, JustFund works directly with your lawyer to ensure you get the support you need quickly and empathetically. Recognised as one of Australia’s fastest growing startups, Craig is joining me to talk about the journey so far and what we can expect from JustFund in 2025. Craig, welcome to the show.

Craig Carroll
Thanks very much, T. Nice to be with you.

Dexter Cousins
Great to have you. I guess, before we kind of go into the conversation of your journey, maybe you could share with our listeners just a little bit about JustFund and the big problem that you solve.

Craig Carroll
Yeah, sure. Look, unfortunately it’s sad to say that somewhere north of 40% of all marriages and relationships in Australia, America and other Western countries are ending up in relationship separation. And many people find themselves trapped in distressing relationships that sometimes can be characterised by domestic violence or emotional or financial control. And so it’s just a sad fact of society today that we have a lot of relationship breakdowns, and we know that in trying to extricate yourself from a relationship, it is a complex and usually very financially and emotionally stressful task.

And if you’re to get what you’re entitled to and achieve a fair out process, it’s important to get legal advice and representation. The problem is that’s expensive and not everybody has access to cash to kind of pay those expenses. And so that’s where JustFund has been conceived, try to ease that burden, reduce the financial and the emotional stress by ensuring people can get access to legal representation when they’re going through this kind of process.

Dexter Cousins
And when did you launch, Craig?

Craig Carroll
So the business was originally started, it emerged out of Startmate in the summer cohort class of 22, so we’ve been lending for about the last two and a half years. It was originally begun by two ex-lawyers who approached me for funding.

Dexter Cousins
And in terms of, I guess, the customers, you’ve talked about kind of who your customers are, is it a bit more complex than that? So you have like a two-sided marketplace where you’re also working with law firms as well?

Craig Carroll
We really, we do work with law firms. We accredit law firms. We want to make sure that we’re working with law firms that have the same kind of client focus that we have, but our relationship is really with the clients. We don’t necessarily play a role in kind of placing clients with law firms. Oftentimes lawyers will refer clients to us, but we tend to kind of stay out of the relationship that is between the client and—we really see that our most important relationship is with our borrower, who is the individual kind of going through the process of separation.

Dexter Cousins
And in terms of kind of innovation, what is the model of JustFund? Do you see yourself as a fintech, as in you’re kind of innovating on the financial product side, or do you see yourself more as a kind of techfin where it’s very much a technology solution?

Craig Carroll
I think we’re more of fintech. It’s innovating on the product side. The big challenge is, how do you lend to people regardless of their income, regardless of their employment or even their credit score? And sometimes we see that things like a credit score can actually be destroyed during the process of separation, because the two parties may stop actually paying on the mortgage. And so to truly help people we need to kind of move beyond the traditional form of lending.

For us, we are kind of a version of a litigation fund in a way, and that we’re essentially lending against a legal entitlement. And so our internal teams will need to assess what we believe is the percent that our client is likely to receive in the separation, and we’ll need to assess what is the value of the underlying relationship assets. And so to do that, it has been, we’ve looked at kind of decades and decades worth of family law court rulings to build up the kind of informational edge that we think is important to the underwriting and the lending that we do.

And so we use technology in that process, right, of underwriting credit. But essentially I think the innovation that we have is creating kind of a very, very flexible line of credit where there’s no upfront cost, there’s no out of pocket, there’s no ongoing payments of interest during this process, and that the entire line of credit is capitalised until the point where the parties reach agreement and there is a settlement.

Dexter Cousins
So in terms of the technology side, obviously there’s been a lot of noise around AI. Some of are just noise and light, but under that, if you can a look at signals or listen out for the signals, I think there’s definitely, I’m seeing the beginnings of it becoming a really disruptive force. And I think the legal industry is one industry that I think is a threat from that disruption. Have you been able on AI at all? You talked about having to go through decades worth of kind of cases, etc. Have you been able to on this AI to actually help in this credit decisioning model that you’ve created?

Craig Carroll
Yeah, by virtue of what we do, we get access often to a lot of existing information, affidavit testimony, sometimes court materials, etc. And so where AI is very helpful to us and lifts productivity is through the distillation of some of that documentation. So that’s clearly kind of the first area of application for us.

I think the second area, we’re very, very client-centric business, and so I think there’s a lot of promise about the application of AI in the world of client service. We’re experimenting with that ourselves, but I think it’s still taking some time to kind of reach that maturity where you can have that kind of 100% confidence in the ability of AI to kind of intermediate some important interactions that are occurring. There’s massive promise there, and it’s very exciting because if you could use AI to actually, in the fintech world, kind of compliantly address the kinds of questions and answers that you need to give so regularly to clients and reserve more time for human to human interaction, that’s a very exciting kind of way for a lot of fintech businesses.

Dexter Cousins
If I felt the frustration, Craig, I think with fintech, certainly in this last kind of decade or so, is that there’s been very little innovation on the product side, and despite the advancements in technology, they still seem to be fairly vanilla product. How have you kind of evolved that thinking to come up with what, I’m assuming like every single case is so unique and has so much nuance to it, that you don’t come up with another vanilla product, but it’s something that actually is tailored around every single circumstance that you encounter and every customer that you encounter?

Craig Carroll
I think the very early days of the business, so much time was spent on kind of crafting that kind of product market fit. How do you kind of very, very deeply understand the unique needs of the client going through a very particular life event, and then how do you kind of shape the financial, in our case a loan, offering that actually addresses all those needs? We originally thought that, oh, there could be like a monthly fee that some would pay us kind of regularly per month, but we soon discovered very quickly that actually even $49 per month fee for some of our clients was just too hard for them to find.

And so those small tweaks and adjustments to the makeup of your product line I think has been really important to us, and we’ve ended up in a place where clients can use as much or as little of the facility that we provide without any penalty. The lending actually is non-recourse, so we are only repaid from the settlement proceeds. We ended up in a place where there’s no fixed term, which is highly unusual kind of in the world of lending, where all interests and fees are capitalised, and interest is only payable on what is drawn and rather than the amount of the line of credit.

And so all those different little tweaks, those different features of the product set I think have been kind of important in shaping what ultimately for us has been very, very strong product market fit, and that’s where we’ve kind of spent, I guess, a lot of our early time and energies, in talking with client, understand them, they understand the different types of clients, because we serve people from all walks of life. Divorce doesn’t discriminate. Financial control and domestic violence doesn’t discriminate. It affects people from kind of all walks of life and all socioeconomic demographics.

We fund people, some people are C-suite executives of ASX listed companies, some are unemployed stay-at-home primary caregivers of children who have no income. So there’s a really, really wide range of different types of clients that we’re serving.

Dexter Cousins
So you were recognised recently, Craig, as one of the AFR, I guess, Fast Starters. What has that growth looked like since 2022?

Craig Carroll
Yeah, it’s been a very fast build for us. We began lending about two and a half years ago. Since then we’ve approved about 115 million in lines of credit. We’re now working with about 650 different law firms across the country in each state, several thousand lawyers within those firms. So yeah, the rise has been pretty—

Dexter Cousins
And in terms of, I guess, the number of people that you are, what’s been your kind of approach to scaling the business? And I kind of, I say this ’cause you launched at a time in a period where we had this almost kind of flagship in the sand of 2022 was the year that we went from let’s go and hire somebody who can go and scale a business and make us a deca unicorn, to just find me somebody who can keep cost down and try and make us profitable. And I think what we’ve seen is that resulted in less of an approach of let’s kind of raise money and hire lots of people, to, I guess, being a little bit more resourceful and using technology and instances to growth. What’s been the approach of JustFund?

Craig Carroll
Yeah, I think we were fairly disciplined, applying some lessons, I guess, from previous startups, in that we did spend a lot of time early on really nailing that product market fit and talking with a lot of clients, a lot of lawyers, about the challenge of funding in this world. We very deliberately kind of held off on building tech out of the gate. It was very much a decision that until we fully understand the range of data that we need to collect, how we need to analyse that data, how we need to report against that data, etc., let’s not build anything. Let’s use third party software to kind of put together the lending solution.

And then I think really for the first year and a half we really ran to that methodology. And then finally we said, look, we’re now on version eight of how we assess clients and how we just do our credit underwriting, we’re now there, we’re now ready to really start building. And so I think we’ve been fairly measured in both employee build, employee cost and tech cost in that first year and a half, probably, as you say, a byproduct of, we were born after the big boom of the 21-22 tech period. There wasn’t a lot of capital around, and I think that’s why the two co-founders ended up kind of coming to me and expressing kind of an interest in whether I be willing to kind of support them financially.

So I think innovation for us, it’s really been a combination of experiences from the past. How do we actually build something that, in lending you shouldn’t scale too quickly, because you’ve actually got to be sure about your lending. I think a fintech that’s doing lending, you do have a little bit of what I call fintech schizophrenia. On the one hand you’re kind of walking this tightrope. You’ve got to be bold, you’ve got to be innovative, you’ve got to be groundbreaking in your product design and your client experience and your product market fit.

But then on the other hand you also have to be kind of for to conservative in your lending. You’ve got to moderate your risk management, you’ve got to have regulatory compliance, and so you’re continually linking the two by embedding loan. And so I just call that kind of fex in a lending company. It’s a bit different if you’re not in lending, but that’s the tightrope that I think that we have walked and that many lenders, early stage lenders, need to walk.

Dexter Cousins
Yeah, one of the interesting things that you mentioned about that, I’ve observed very similar, and it’s come through in the kind of marketing and growth strategies of fintechs, where it’s kind of, that advertising has been indiscriminate and it’s say, everybody come and apply to us. And then 99% of the people that they’ve spent a lot of money in customers they tried to acquire, they then turn around and say, no thanks, we’re not interested. And that’s only a moment in time where you’re not trusted, but you’ve just paid to piss off like 99% of your potential market. And I just can’t understand, why on earth is that seen as being a good strategy?

Craig Carroll
Well L line burn a lot of cash too, right? Because your cost to customer acquisition is significant when you’re churning away or turning away that amount of that is. Lending businesses are tough businesses, I think, to get off the ground, for the reasons that you’ve articulated, but also because you’ve got a dual challenge. On the one hand you’re raising equity, and then if you’re successful you actually also have to raise debt to feed the machine. And so a lending business, fintech lending business, by definition kind of this dual challenge that’s almost a double challenge compared to other businesses.

Dexter Cousins
Yeah, it’s odd. It’s odd as well, right, like how when people announce that they’ve raised a debt facility, it’s kind of scoffed at as if, oh yeah, well that’s not raising, that’s not the same as raising equity. It’s actually getting access to money to deliver your product and grow the business. I can’t understand why it’s almost kind of seen as this poor second cousin.

Craig Carroll
Yeah, really it really shouldn’t be, right, because the thresholds are high. If’s going to lend you bucket loads of money, millions and millions of dollars, they want to understand not only the processes, how robust are your systems, how ethical are your managers, how sure are you about your lending, what’s your risk framework. I mean, it goes on and on. The DD on some of these debt facilities is far more extensive sometimes than the DD you go through for an rat.

Dexter Cousins
So what was your background prior to joining JustFund, Craig?

Craig Carroll
Yeah, I guess I’ve been in, I’ve done a couple startups in the US. Originally grew up here in Australia, took a job with baning company, the management consulting firm, was lucky enough to work in their customer acquisition, retention and loyalty group, where we did a lot of work with banks and insurance companies and credit card companies. Then went back to the US and got an MBA over there, and happened to graduate during the dot-com burn, and started a business, and then went on to kind of do two other businesses in the US.

So one of those businesses was in social lending. We did a lot of student loans, so we were kind of helping Americans access a university education, and I always thought that that kind of lending was the best form of lending we ever could do. I just felt so good about what we’re doing, that it felt very powerful, very powerful. But I think with this type of we’re doing at JustFund, I’ve actually found something that I feel is even more impactful, has a higher social impact.

Dexter Cousins
And with the US experience, I think one of the kind of frustrations that I see, and it’s still evident now, is kind of trying to extrapolate what works in the US and applying that to the Australian startup ecosystem, and the dynamics are just very, very different. The challenges are very different. What were your learnings in the US that you were able to kind of take and apply here, and what were some of the things that kind of, maybe has worked for you in the US but never going to work for you here in Australia?

Craig Carroll
Yeah, I think a couple learnings from that early business that we had in the US actually relates to something we were just chatting about, which is kind of the cost of customer acquisition, which is kind of like the death knell for a lot of fintechs and a lot of startups who were doing consumer based financial services. One thing we learned, we actually kind of pioneered in the US in the student loan market, was we partnered directly with colleges and universities and we essentially did privately labelled loan programs. And so I learned very early on that as a fintech, if you can kind of control your cost custom acquisition, it gives you a bigger buffer essentially to kind of success.

And I think the other big learning was that if you focus just relentlessly on your clients, your borrowers in that instance, and your partners, which were the universities and colleges that we were partnered with, if you really truly put them at the centre of the business in a genuine way, it’s hard not to be successful. And I’ve kind of carried over those lessons and learning kind of into what we do at JustFund today, where client centricity is, it’s more than just a—it’s actually in us.

It’s just a different kind of business. The risk appetite in the US is just so much greater than in Australia. Your ability to—but you do have different disadvantages. US, you’re in the world of lending in the usate state, whereas in Australia where uni—

Dexter Cousins
Yes. Oh yeah. One of the other things that I think is kind of often over-indexed, I feel personally, with the US and Australia is talent. And look, I think calibre wise, I’m going to kind of put my neck out here and actually think for the Aussie market, Australian talent is probably better suited than US talent. And the reason why I say that is, kind of one of the things that you touched on is capital. But what that then does is, the resources that you have available with which to try and make a business successful, you’ve got far fewer available to you here in Oz than you do in the US, and it means that you kind of have to be, what I’d say is a lot more entrepreneurial if you’re working in a startup, regardless of what your role is.

And then the other challenge is that you kind of don’t have any room for error, right? There’s a saying that it takes you years to build a good reputation and seconds to destroy it. The US is that big that you can keep destroying your reputation and kind of still find a market, whereas here in Oz you get one shot and it’s kind of, that’s it, game over. What’s your view on the kind of differences in talent?

Craig Carroll
Yeah, I do think Australians are in general a very adaptable, innovative individuals, and I think that is a consequence of some of the characteristics you’ve talked about. It’s also a consequence of the fact that we’re a very small country that’s very outward looking, so we’re very open to kind of ideas and learning and seeing what has been done in other jurisdictions, whereas I think in general you can say the US, because of the size and the scale of market, it’s more inward looking, less necessarily open to different perspectives.

And I think Australians in general, I think, have done very well when they land in the US, and possibly vice versa. Americans going to land in Australia, I think ultimately they feel that this is, by definition it’s just a much smaller place, it’s a much smaller pond, and things are done differently, and we place a different emphasis. And if a lot of success in business and startups is on personal interaction, whether you’re selling to people or whether it’s managing people, there are very distinct styles between Australians and Americans. We’re less hierarchy, we’re more self-deprecating, whereas Americans will turn the dial up a bit more on that kind of chest beating, I’ve done everything kind of style.

So yeah, the more time you spend in the US, I think the more you start to unpick and feel the differences in the culture between the two countries. But look, it’s a hyper-competitive place, I think that’s what I would, my experiences in three startups in the US. You never have a market to yourself. They hunt you down, they compete, they find new ways to kind of address whatever solution or problem that you’re trying to address, and that makes it a super exciting but a very challenging place to do business.

Dexter Cousins
We’ve had conversations before, Craig, about the challenges around hiring, and look, I think kind of everything that you’ve shared makes a lot of sense. I think the issue that I kind of keep trying to express to founders and leaders within fintech is that it’s not necessarily that there’s a talent shortage, it’s just that the type of person who’s going to be successful in your environment, you’ve only got about 10% of the population who actually kind of have the desire to put themselves in that situation and then the grit and resilience to get through it and be successful.

And was a lot of people might kind of aspire or see themselves as that person, kind of when they’re actually in this situation it’s a different story. What are some of the qualities that you kind of look for in people when you’re hiring that give you a strong indication that they’re going to be one of the 10% and not the 90% who are going to leave within the first few months?

Craig Carroll
Yeah, finding people who are kind of really ambitious and really driven, people that truly want to be part of a fast growing social impact company, that’s not easy. When you come across those people they kind of stand out very clearly and distinctly to you. I’m always kind of assessing people when I’m interviewing them, like, are they really a fit for startup environment? Because a young fast growing company is a very, very different beast to a larger financial services company, for example. And you have to be comfortable with change, because change is a constant, and it has to be a constant in the world of a great startup. And some people are comfortable with change and some people just really don’t like it, but I think that kind of adaptability is super important when you’re looking to make kind of the right hires.

For us, we have a very clear lens on kind of the type of values that we want our team to have, because we’re looking for people that can also display those values in their interactions with our clients and the lawyers that we deal with. And so for us we’re probably the only fintech lending company that has values like empathy and care. Responsiveness and professionalism, kind of two others that would be more common, but we’re very distinctly looking for a certain style of person that fits with the kind of the service values that we have as a business.

Dexter Cousins
I guess one of the kind of key challenges for many, many kind of leaders in fintech is, I guess, the fact that it is so fast moving, it’s so high stakes, it’s so volatile, direction has to change constantly. As a leader, how do you, I guess first of all, kind of make sure that you’re demonstrating the qualities that, one, people expect, but two, that are required to make the business successful? And then how do you manage kind of those challenges around your mental health and physical health and getting the balance with family and all of the other things that we have to do 24 hours a day?

Craig Carroll
Yeah, I think leaders in some respects going have to model in an authentic way those attributes that you want your employees to also have. And so you can’t talk about wanting your employees to be responsive and empathy that he can caring and then, as a leader, kind of not also so. You’ve truly got to be authentic.

Dexter Cousins
And at the end of the day, that really is one of the key linchpins of building the culture, isn’t it? It’s funny, Craig, right, like everybody uses this Netflix thing of don’t hire brilliant jerks, and I’ve always posited back, but what if the founder’s the brilliant jerk? Right, and that’s the reality, right? It’s closer to reality that the founder’s the brilliant jerk rather than anybody that you hire end of the business.

Craig Carroll
Yeah, I would say if you want to truly understand what is the genuine culture within a business, look at the culture and the attributes of the founders and the leaders the business, because ultimately the responsibility of the leaders is to set the tone, is to light the way, and to hold people accountable. And if you don’t have those same values, then you’ll find it very hard to actually naturally hold people accountable to the benchmark that you’re looking for or trying to aspire to.

I love to ask the question to people, senior managers, I’m interviewing them, is how do you build a culture? Because for me culture is so key and important to the success of a business, and everyone says that and takes it almost as a given, but very few managers seem to really think about what does it take. And so I think one of the most important objectives in the first couple of years of a startup is setting the foundation stone of the culture that you’re looking to create, and that takes work. It takes very selective hiring, it may take a little of tweaking and firing where you don’t get it right, but there’s very few things that are more important in the early years of a business, because often the culture that you start with, embedded by kind of year three or so, it starts to become harder and harder to shift and change.

Dexter Cousins
Now we’re kind of at the beginning of the new year. I guess first off, what’s got you excited about the year ahead, and what can we expect from JustFund?

Craig Carroll
Yeah, I think it’s going to be an exciting year for us. We’re expecting to do our first kind of step into international markets, so we will be kind of lending in New Zealand in the first half of this coming year. We’re also spending quite bit of time looking at the US, where we see a very significant large market that does not have the type of solution that we’re providing to clients here in Australia. And so I think, if anything, we talked earlier about the differences between Australia and America. Australia can be a very interesting kind of test bed market, where you can kind of iron out processes, understand the characteristics of a product, and then start to kind of apply that lens to the US market and see how does it need to be different, how can it be the same.

And I think for us we’re on that very exciting kind of pathway of doing that diligence to understand, do we have a product here that actually is quite unique in the US context, and can we kind of adopt as well as adapt it into the jurisdictions over there? So I think that’s very exciting for us. More growth on the both in the employee side. The last year we tripled our employee count, and that takes a lot of time, but it comes with a lot of reward when you see a team coming together and you see a culture being formed and you see people truly delivering for clients.

We’re a business that lives and dies by our net promoter score. Like, we are very fixated on client-centric service. And so I know every company talks about that. I call BS on 95% of them, because they don’t really make the hard decisions that are necessary. If you’re truly going to be client-centric, you’re actually going to incur additional costs, you’re actually going to do things that are inconvenient to you, but you do them because it’s what pleases your client. And we’re pretty serious about that. We take a net promoter score when we originate a loan, we take one when a client repays, we ask our lawyers that we work with to rate us.

But it’s super rewarding and super motivating when your team sees a net promoter score that is kind of way beyond the traditional bounds of what you’d see in financial services and lending. And that positive feedback creates a very, very valuable kind of flywheel, because we have a system where every single client testimonial and score is fed into the Slack channel. Every single person the company sees it, and it helps to keep us very centred every day, every day in, day out. This is what we’re here for. We’re here to help these clients get through a very difficult kind of journey and different process.

So yeah, I’m very excited when I see that kind of feedback that we’re getting. It’s definitely driving our growth, it’s helping drive our reputation. When it works well, it’s a super powerful motivating factor for employees, as well as in hiring, because you have so much depth of information you can actually share with people about, here is the impact we are having on people. We do make a difference.

Dexter Cousins
On that point, Craig, we’re coming to a wrap, but we do have amazing talent listening to this podcast. There’s anybody who’s listening out there who’s really inspired by what you’re doing at JustFund, what’s the best way for them to find out about careers?

Craig Carroll
Best way is to probably kind of go on to our LinkedIn page. Happy for them to reach out directly to me. They can email me, and we also post openings on our website.

Dexter Cousins
Awesome. Craig, thanks so much for joining me.

Craig Carroll
Thanks Dexter, enjoyed it.

Dexter Cousins
As always, folks, you can follow me on LinkedIn. I’m dabbling with Bluesky, but I’m not sure if any of you are out there. So if you want to follow me on there, it’s Dexter Cousins. You can also check us out on our YouTube channel, Fintech Chatter TV. If you’re coming back, thanks so much for your support, and if you are new to the show, make sure you give us a follow wherever you engage with podcasts. Until the next episode, keep well.

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