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Erica Xie – Tanggram.

June 7, 2024 · Hosted by Dexter Cousins

Erica Xie joins Dexter Cousins to chat about Tanggram, a smart wealth-creating App that  integrates investment with shopping rewards.

Congratulations to Erica who has just been announced as Emerging Fintech Leader of the Year at the 2024 Finnies Awards.

About Tanggram

Co-founded with CEO Nick Tang in 2017, Tanggram is unique in that it serves a massively underserved segment of Australia’s community, Asian immigrants.

The app provides a seamless wealth building journey to well-educated, young people who have stable income streams and financial goals.

Dexter spoke to Erica just days before she was awarded Emerging Fintech Leader of the Year at the prestigious Finnies Awards.

Erica shares her journey as COO from starting out as a financial advisor with Nick, to building a Fintech Platform. We also cover:

  • Building a lean and agile operation
  • Supporting and educating the Chinese community on the Australian financial services landscape
  • Keeping customers, partners and people together and building good will with customers
  • Building an app and serving a niche market
  • Converting subscribers on an email list into paying users of the app

Erica also shares news of the upcoming launch of their superannuation product.

https://www.tanggram.com/more-super

About Erica Xie

Erica is a results-oriented leader with extensive experience in business management and operations, particularly in startups and the Fintech industry. As the Co-founder of Tanggram, Erica has played a key role in building a cohesive and goal-oriented team, and has contributed to the successful partnerships and market position of the business. 

Erica was honored as the “Emerging Fintech Leader of the Year” at Fintech Australia’s Finnies Awards and “Young Leader of the Year” at the Women in Finance 2022. Erica has also been nominated for the “Female Fintech Leader of the Year” in both the 2023 and 2024 Fintech Australia Finnies Awards.

https://www.tanggram.com/

Links from this episode.

More on investing and super on Fintech Chatter.

Full transcript.

Lightly edited for readability — filler words removed, wording otherwise unchanged.

Dexter Cousins
Fintech Chatter podcast, brought to you by Tier One People, the leaders in executive search for fintech ventures.

Hello and welcome to Fintech Chatter, the show where fintech leaders join me for a chat. I’m your host, Dexter Cousins, and today’s guest is Erica Xie, COO from Tanggram. Tanggram began back in 2016 as Australia’s award-winning wealth creating app, founded by CEO Nick Tang. They’re on a mission to help everyday people make money through investing. What makes Tanggram unique is their focus on serving Australia’s Asian community. Erica joins me to share the story of Tanggram, the strategies and lessons they’ve learned from focusing on niche, underserved markets, and Erica’s own journey as a startup founder. Erica, welcome to Fintech Chatter.

Erica Xie
Thank you, Dexter. Thank you for the invitation.

Dexter Cousins
It’s great to have you on. Look, I think it was about a year back when we first met in Melbourne, and I’ve been wanting to kind of get you on the show for quite some time really, because I just think Tanggram is such a great story. But before we kind of share that story, maybe you could share with our listeners a little bit about Tanggram and the big problem that you solve.

Erica Xie
Yeah, yeah, sure. So the Tanggram has started back to 2017. Before 2017 we were providing financial advisory business to high net worth clients. Then in 2017 we started to transit from financial advisory business to this investment app. So Tanggram basically is a investment app integrating investment options and also the shopping rewards. So from the investment side, our investment philosophy is that we, instead of investing single projects or single shares trading, we tend to invest in the best fund managers in Australia. So that’s also because of our previous experience and relationships with the elite fund managers in Australia. We understand how they perform and how they do the risk management. So what we do is we act as an institutional investor in this fund manager.

But on the other side we have lower the investment threshold to our clients, and who are individual clients like young people or young families, and they can start their investment with just $1,000 instead of like 50K or 100K.

Dexter Cousins
Yeah. And so that kind of $11,000, once somebody then invests in that, will they start to then have access to the rewards program as well?

Erica Xie
Yeah, yeah. And actually a rewards program is more about a loyalty program we have created for our investment users as well. So we have collaborate with over 5,000 merchants and brands across Australia. So what we do is every time one of users shopping in this merchants and brands, they can get a T-Points in the app. So this T-Points is one points equal to $1, and every time when they do the shoppings or even paying the bills they can receive a certain amount of T-Points back to the Tanggram app, and every time they can boost their investment portfolio with these T-Points, which acting as a investment credit.

Dexter Cousins
Awesome. So how did the idea for Tanggram come about?

Erica Xie
That was a very long story, because when we’re doing the financial advisory business we have approached many clients. So we have served high net worth clients and we also get to know their next generations. And also because of our age and Nick and I, we have many friends aged around 30 to 40 years old. So they do have savings and they want to have more knowledge of the investment options in Australia, but if they don’t have access to the adviser they are very limited with the investment options and opportunities here.

So that’s how we’d like to lower the information barrier in between of the best investment options and also this young generations. So what we do is more about a digital investment platform. We get rid of the financial advice. We just provide a general advice of these investment options. We put this investment options in the app, listed in the app, and we have these individuals to download the app and they can enjoy this investment without any other, like, face-to-face communication and also bigger fees to the advisers.

Dexter Cousins
So is it kind of almost like a first step into a broader world of investing, and kind of to get people in the habit of actually investing in the first place?

Erica Xie
Yeah. Maybe let’s put in another way. So we are targeting people who have a stable income and they want to live their life easier and happier, yeah. So we are providing a stable income credit funds to our users currently, which means every time when they do the investment they can receive a monthly distribution. So our target users, their investment philosophy or their investment preference would be reasonable investment returns to help them to boost their savings, yeah, and make their life easier and better.

Dexter Cousins
Got you. So you mentioned earlier that you and Nick were both financial advisers, and that’s, I guess, an industry and a profession that’s become really difficult to kind of make successful, given all the regulatory changes and challenges that have happened over the last like five, six years. Are you still both financial advisers, so have you kind of decided that Tanggram is the way for you to actually be successful as individuals, given that was your chosen profession?

Erica Xie
So since 2017, when we established the Tanggram, we have transit gradually from the previous financial adviser business to this digital platform, and we’ve dedicate our team and resources in operating the Tanggram investment fund and also developing the Tanggram technology. So currently we both are not financial advisers anymore, yeah, yeah. And we just focus on how we can provide elite fund options within the app and how we can promote this app to all the individuals, where we have no idea where they are or who they are, but they are happy with our service in app.

Dexter Cousins
So how many customers do you have now on the platform?

Erica Xie
We have served over 15K.

Dexter Cousins
Wow, yeah. So if you were to do a kind of traditional financial advisory style role, how many customers per year do you think you would feasibly kind of be able to have in any one year?

Erica Xie
You mean with the Paris financial adviser?

Dexter Cousins
Yeah, yeah.

Erica Xie
That was really different, because it’s different target group of users, different target clients. So previously, when we dealing with the advisory business, the average customer per year would be around 50 to 60 customers, right, 50 to 60 families we’ll see, yeah.

Dexter Cousins
But they’re obviously investing a bit more than, say, somebody who’s downloading the app, would that be right?

Erica Xie
Yeah, because the parway one, they are more like, they have lots of savings, and some of them they immigrates from different countries, and they want to set up their asset portfolio here. So we help them with the superannuation portfolio, we also help them with the insurance and also the investment outside super. So that was really different. It took us lot of time and effort to alliance with them and also provide our service and advice every year, because we have to review every year based on their lifestyle and also the change of their lives as well, yeah.

But currently with the Tanggram investment app, we just focus on how we can present the Tanggram investment fund in the app and how we can do the allocation with our partners, fund managers, and how we can leverage our merchants and brands to have more people to save from shopping and invest from shopping, yeah.

Dexter Cousins
How many people are with Tanggram now as employees?

Erica Xie
It’s around 15, 15 people.

Dexter Cousins
Cool. So you mentioned there you kind of started to build the platform. What’s that journey been like? What have been some of the kind of key learnings from the beginning of the early days of coming up with the idea, to now where you are in 2024?

Erica Xie
That was a very long journey. So I think the key learning for me is how we can be resilient and patient, and how we are, like, how strong our vision is with this business, because to me it’s not just a job, it’s more about how we can create something that help more individuals to build their wealth. So starting back to 2017, we were just three to four staffs, yeah. So we have fund managers and we have one IT guys, and right now we have IT team and we have marketing team and also the F operation team.

So I’m very proud of the team. So I see most of them has been with Tanggram for in average like five years, yeah. Most of them joined the Tanggram in 2018, when we just started this idea, yeah. So I can see the changes and growth, and I can see they started from maybe just a junior staff to right now more capable in a leader, leading the team, yeah. Because as a leader is really, it’s not just how you perform your job, it’s more about how you can take care of your staffs, yeah, and how you can leverage your resources and your vision and to be a very good example of your as well.

Dexter Cousins
One of the things that really kind of strikes me with you and Nick is just the kind of the warmth and authenticity and care and just generally just very, very nice people. And if I was to describe Tanggram, if it were a restaurant, it would be one of those kind of family-owned Italian restaurants where the food is made with love and the people make you feel like you’re at their home and they really look after you. And I really get that kind of warmth from you and Nick, and that you actually really care, not just about your people but about your customers and about your partners as well.

What do you think has been, I guess, the benefits of having that level of care and authenticity? You’ve spoken there about the people being with you for a number of years, and we know that particularly in startups it’s very difficult to keep people for longer than 12, 18 months. What are some of the benefits of having that approach and, like, putting people first and customers first versus being focused just on growth than investors and raising capital?

Erica Xie
That’s a good question. I think the most benefit is our vision in the business, because we want to build a very sustainable business. So if we put the growth of the business or capital raising in the first stage, while we may compromise how people’s feeling, how our staff’s feeling, I was not very confident that we can be very sustainable with these challenges. Because when we’re facing the challenges, especially during the Covid, we have the teamwork, or very strong teamwork. We have to have all the staffs understanding where we are at and be very straightforward with our directions. If any of them not being very taken care of, they will just not put their 100% dedication into the work.

So my, how to say, my attitude or maybe my style of work in dealing with people or putting people’s interest in the front is that we have to understand where they at, we have to understand what’s their needs and desire. So once we satisfy their needs and once we show our care to their needs and their wants, they are happy with where we are at and they are happy with facing the challenges together with us, because they trust in us as well, yeah.

Dexter Cousins
So there’s obviously been challenges, I guess. We kind of all experienced Covid and some of the curve balls that threw at us. I guess for a lot of businesses wasn’t just about supporting their people but it was also about supporting their customers as well. What were some of the things that you learned through that Covid period, and how did you navigate that?

Erica Xie
That was a very interesting period of time, because we just launched Tanggram app in April 2020, yeah. So that’s just the start of the Covid as well, almost the same month, the same day, but we didn’t plan for it. Actually, when we launched the app we planned for two months for this launch, and also we had a very comprehensive marketing plan to go with the launch. But just the Covid hit and we have to work from home, yeah. And at that time we also hired some senior staff to help us with the marketing and also with the promotion. We didn’t have enough time to get understanding wisdom from daily work, because everyone just back to home to work. So that was very challenging.

And another thing is we couldn’t follow the marketing plan we have scheduled, so we just changed the marketing from offline to online. But I really appreciate our merchants and brands we have signed initially, because they were very struggle with their sales as well. So what we did is we held on some not-for-profit campaign with this partners. So what we do is we help them to promote their products within the app and we have the register users to buy these products, and in return these merchants can give back some discounts, which is in the format of the T-Points.

So this is a good time for us to promote what is Tanggram. So this is the function we have, will help you to buy more products online and also help you to boost your investment from this shopping rewards, yeah. And on the other side we have the merchants to go through the challenges during the Covid, because they couldn’t even open the store, yeah, yeah.

Dexter Cousins
So one of the things that also kind of struck me as well is 15,000 customers doesn’t sound a lot, but when you’re asking each one of them to invest at least $1,000, that then becomes huge, right? Like, that’s not just, “Oh, you download an app,” that’s like you give us, put $1,000 into this investment, right? So there’s a lot of hurdles that you have to overcome to get that amount of customer as, kind of, people to do that. What’s been the messaging and the strategy to get that level of, I guess, one, trust, but also just the number of people that are investing on the platform?

Erica Xie
The strategy for us, because we were very new at the beginning and also because of our maybe Asian background, we couldn’t have a very straightforward relationship with the local community as well. So what we did is we help people to enjoy the shopping rewards first, because they have to shop anyway, but as long as they can see, “Okay, Tanggram can help us to receive some discount from this brands,” they are happy to do so. So every time when we give back the T-Points to their account, we provide the notification and we help them to understand how you can leverage this T-Points, this rewards.

So that is the time they understand, “Okay, there is some investment options in app and let me find out.” So they can find out, “Okay, there’s a very good return, very competitive investment options in the app for them to boost, to use the accumulated T-Points.” So that is the time they might take action to make the first move to the investment within theam, yeah.

And in the other side, we had some seminars and VIP clients, thanks to our previous advisory business. So we had very good friends and clients who put their money into Tanggram investment fund directly, without any shopping rewards. So that was very appreciated, yeah. But in overall we also did some digital marketing as well. So actually we have received the subscription with over 70K.

Dexter Cousins
That is a lot.

Erica Xie
Yeah. So we just need to maybe spend more marketing money, yeah, to convert this subscription to register and then to the investment.

Dexter Cousins
So that’s 70,000 who’ve downloaded the app and…

Erica Xie
70,000, that was the register with the newsletters, right? So we have the email with the newsletters, and every time when we do some announcement we can send out to this pool. And 15K is the registered users who have download the app and who have their account within the app, yeah.

Dexter Cousins
So it’s the Finnies next week, and you guys are finalists. Again, you’re a finalist for, is it Emerging Leader of the Year?

Erica Xie
Yes, Emerging Leader of the Year and also Female Fintech Leader of the Year. I so honoured and so humbled with that, yeah.

Dexter Cousins
You’re kind of always there or thereabouts at the Finnies, and I think that you got some really kind of strong competition as well, great businesses like peara, Stockspot. And I think we’re seeing some, I think, real, I don’t know if, what really strikes me is I think it must be the fact that everybody who’s building a wealth management app is following the same investment principles and then applying that to their business. So everybody is really careful about where they get capital from, not growing too quickly, focused on customers, focused on a product that kind of delivers and gets great returns.

What have you found, kind of through your journey, as being a female in fintech and trying to build a sustainable business? What are some of the lessons that you’ve kind of learned along the way about yourself, but also about guess building a business as well?

Erica Xie
I think the most valuable lesson for me is, as I just mentioned, just be resilient and be clear with my vision and my mission. That is really important, because during some, like, challenging time, I was very, like, pushed with different task and different skills and different challenges, and at that time I was really, I put myself very serious with everything, yeah. So I put lot of pressure on myself, yeah, and then that was some time I feel like I had no idea where I am right now.

Dexter Cousins
So I guess you and Nick, right, you’ve not done something like this before, you not built a fintech platform. How did you actually kind of work with each other and work through those challenges, given that neither of you have done this before?

Erica Xie
Actually, I didn’t partner with anyone before. So that was a very good lesson for me as well, to partner with someone in the business, because actually it is a very close relationship. You have to trust each other and understand each other, and also maybe because of different gender and different age and different background, sometimes we have the conflicts. But as long as we have a very clear, the same direction, it is okay for us to just express ourselves and understand different position, so we can come by with different strategies.

So to work with Nick, I really appreciate his support to me during those challenge times, because I always learned from the practice. I would say maybe 90% of the tasks I’ve done was just my first time I have with that, yeah. I didn’t do it any time before. And also because it is a startup, it is a business, I wanted to treat it very seriously. I wanted to do something right and be successful and responsible for everything and all the people I have met. So Nick has supported me very good, and also in the meantime I think our method of work is different, so that’s how we can maybe collaborate with each other.

So myself, I tend to be more empathetic, more vulnerable when communicating with different people, with like our stakeholders, our shareholders or our team members. But in the same time I tend to be more direct with the communication. But Nick is more strategic, yeah, he got a very long-term vision. So, but in the meantime he is more softer spoken. You know him, you know his style. So it is a very good match for us.

For example, when we’re hiring a senior role, I tend to be the first one to meet with this candidate, because I want to feel with my empathetic, I tend to feel where they are at, I tend to understand what’s their needs. Maybe they didn’t speak out, but I tend to feel, “Okay, that is what he need or what she need.” And then I also try to be very upfront with our challenges, yeah, and tend to be more upfront with what we need from this role, yeah. And then I came back to Nick and share what I have discovered, and Nick is more strategic, so he would come with a more comprehensive hiring plan, yeah, or a comprehensive package, yeah, and then we can back to this candidate and to have better discussion. So yeah.

Dexter Cousins
And one of the things that kind of really struck me about Nick is, when I first kind of had a real discussion with him, really comes down to, are you going out to change your world, or you going out to change your customers’ world? And I think one of the nice things about Tanggram is it really is, I think, kind of changing your customers’ world. You kind of really focused on community. What is the long-term vision for Tanggram, and where do you see the business kind of heading over this next few years?

Erica Xie
Tanggram from day one tends to be a unicorn, as always. So that’s our mission. But to be a successful unicorn or to be a successful, like, entrepreneur, it combines your hard work and your resource and also some luck, yeah, yeah. So we need to focus on where we are at and we need to focus on what business we are building, yeah, and what benefit we want to provide to this society, and we just leverage what we have and our vision. So that is really important.

Dexter Cousins
And I guess in terms of kind of what you’ve got planned for this next 12 months, any exciting news that you want to share at all, Erica?

Erica Xie
Yes, yes, definitely. So Tanggram is planning to have a super fund. So that is very exciting. Based on our previous experience in the financial advisory industry, we understand superannuation in Australia is very regulated, yeah, and we understand so many people, especially immigrates, they came here, everyone has super account, but most of them they had no idea what super is, yeah. So we are building a super fund specific for Asian Australia community, right.

And that is really exciting for me, because I feel like it’s time for us to do this kind of amazing thing, because we have built some reputation, we have built a very solid team, and we also have build some connections within the industry. So I feel like it’s a good time for us to move forward with the super plan. And also with the target group I just mentioned, we’re going to focus on Asian Australia community, because we see there’s a big gap in between, yeah.

We as a immigrant here, we understand, we did talk to many Asian people or Asian families. So they came here, they live their life and they live with plans, yeah, they work very hard and they live with plans, yeah. So everyone they do have a super account, but many of them they don’t even know it does have an investment, yeah. They sh it is maybe just a saving scheme run by the government, right. So that was really funny, that was really interesting, and they didn’t know, “Okay, super can be invested,” and they had no idea there is some, like, default insurance options within the super, and they have no idea how is the performance and how is the related cost.

So we saw the problem, we really want to solve it, because we don’t want to see them eventually get less super savings for others when they retired, right. And also it’s a very big market as well, because Asian Australia tends to grow in very fast, yeah, and they live very hard, yeah.

Dexter Cousins
And I guess you kind of guaranteed, once somebody signs up to your super fund, if they stay with it, you’re going to have pretty much guaranteed contributions every year as well.

Erica Xie
Yeah, the guaranteed contribution is increasing as well, so right now it’s around 11 and 11.5, yes, I think.

Dexter Cousins
Is it 12 next?

Erica Xie
Yeah, 12 the next year, I think.

Dexter Cousins
Fantastic. Where can people find out more about Tanggram?

Erica Xie
They can just download Tanggram app, yeah, and they can browse Tanggram website, tangram 3 wang.com. Remember, it’s tangram withoug n g g. And also they can pay us in LinkedIn, and we have very free to receive more feedbacks from different individuals and institution as well, and we are welcoming all the collaboration opportunities, especially with the upcoming super fund.

Dexter Cousins
Awesome. Well, Erica, it’s been fantastic to have you on the show. Good luck at the Finnies as well this week, and it’s Friday?

Erica Xie
Thursday. Thursday, yeah.

Dexter Cousins
So good luck with the Finnies, and yeah, we wish you and Nick all the best, and fantastic to hear about Tanggram.

Erica Xie
Thank you, Dexter. Thank you for this opportunity.

Dexter Cousins
As always, folks, you can follow me on LinkedIn. Make sure to give us a follow if you’re new to the show, and if you’re coming back, thanks so much for your support. It really does help in showcasing and giving a platform to great founders like Erica and Nick at Tanggram. Until the next episode, keep well.

Fintech Chatter is produced by Tier One People, leaders in fintech executive search. We’ll find world-class leadership talent to build world-class fintech ventures, and you can find us at tieronepeople.com.

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